tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post399389545349019649..comments2023-07-26T04:54:13.903-07:00Comments on Robin's Readings and Reflections: Are members of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches Christians?Terrell Clemmonshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17367926808246409525noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-23037691311196742802013-10-10T06:19:33.096-07:002013-10-10T06:19:33.096-07:00Your remark stating that the different particular ...Your remark stating that the different particular churches within Eastern Orthodoxy are analogous to Protestant denominations is somewhat inaccurate. First of all, between the majority of Eastern Orthodox churches, there is no bickering or disagreement on any theological matter. The only controversy among Eastern Orthodox churches involves questions of territorial jurisdiction in the US and other traditionally non-Orthodox countries that have a substantial diaspora. Not all EO churches are a party to this; the Patriarch of Alexandria, the Church of Greece and the Church of Bulgaria exist in a state of complete harmony with their neighbors and do not operate directly in the new world, but rather through exarchates operated by other churches, if at all (for example, Greek Orthodox parishes in North America are part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople rather than the Church of Greece).<br /><br />The British Orthodox Church is a very small diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church which operates in the UK, under the supervision of the larger Coptic episcopate. The Syriac Orthodox Church, along with the Coptic Orthodox Church (and by extension, the British Orthodox Church), the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Eritrean Orthodox Church and the Armenian Orthodox Church, is Oriental Orthodox. There are no theological disagreements at all within the Oriental Orthodox communion, although there are a few schismatic groups which are not recognized by the Patriarchates. <br /><br />The liturgies used by the Oriental Orthodox (West Syriac Rite, Coptic Rite, Armenian Rite) are far more diverse than those used by the Eastern Orthodox, which at present universally use the Byzantine Rite. There is no theological dispute underpinning these divisions however. Each rite is analogous to the different liturgical traditions of the Uniate churches in Roman Catholicism (which use rites other than the Latin Rite).<br /><br />There is a theological rift between the Eastern Orthodox communion and the Oriental Orthodox communion, as the Oriental Orthodox reject the Council of Chalcedon and are not parties to subsequent councils. However, aside from embracing miaphysitism, and not sharing the EO enthusiasm for Palamist ascetic practice, the theologies of the two churches are extremely similiar; both venerate icons and the saints and subscribe to a doctrine of transubstantiation (although they don't call it that, deeming the term to be an unhelpful product of Roman Catholic scholasticism). <br /><br />What is more, the EO and OO enjoy very cordial ecumenical relations. The Oriental Orthodox are the only other body of believers that are considered by a reasonable portion of the Eastern Orthodox hierarchy to be "orthodox". There is a very warm relationship between the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and between the Greek Orthodox Patriach of Alexandria and the Coptic Orthodox. These churches have agreements in place which recognize the validity of each other's sacraments, and there are protocols to facilitate intermarriage, and substantial cooperation on humanitarian efforts.William G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15075579657027430612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-33312042416137495322012-01-02T19:51:07.175-08:002012-01-02T19:51:07.175-08:00Oops, sorry the debate was not with Perry Robinson...Oops, sorry the debate was not with Perry Robinson but with Patrick Barnes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-22272852614399203032012-01-02T19:47:45.621-08:002012-01-02T19:47:45.621-08:00Thanks John. I do think EO has much to offer, and ...Thanks John. I do think EO has much to offer, and it seems that all traditions have certain inherent strengths and weaknesses. Recognizing the weaknesses in every tradition does not mean I have to think or feel that I am the only real Christian. You might want to check out my debate with Perry Robinson (under the EO label on this blog). But mind you that was when I was less sympathetic than I now am to EO.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-80920370556993178442012-01-02T19:34:44.333-08:002012-01-02T19:34:44.333-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-48901385692857549332012-01-02T17:37:05.965-08:002012-01-02T17:37:05.965-08:00I'm one of those former Calvinists, now Orthod...I'm one of those former Calvinists, now Orthodox. <br />I just stumbled onto your writings (via 8 Gnostic Myths) and am enjoying them quite a lot. <br />After you attended an RP Church but finding Calvinism shot through with Gnosticism (your identification of the Docetist tendencies was great, with quotes new to me), I'd hope you could make room within the faith for us EO. The alternative, it seems to me, would come close to "I'm the only real Christian because Catholics and EO aren't, Calvinism's Gnostic, etc."Reader Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00228580181161898001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-29151682352918620822010-11-01T03:41:25.462-07:002010-11-01T03:41:25.462-07:00As an Eastern Orthodox, I find it hilarious that h...As an Eastern Orthodox, I find it hilarious that heretics, aka protestants, question the Christianity of the oldest Christian denomination.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02553791290922468521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-62162052720980981242010-09-08T14:05:57.301-07:002010-09-08T14:05:57.301-07:00As a Roman Catholic I have a question: Fogbound s...As a Roman Catholic I have a question: Fogbound said, "Doctrinally, the EO is deeply rooted in the historical early Councils .... etc." Question: Has the EO, since the Schism in the 11th Century, iniated or been involved in any Councils? If not .... why not? With respect: LostOarEd Jacoutothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522961191913866956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-82848873366855675622010-04-02T14:50:59.302-07:002010-04-02T14:50:59.302-07:00A very interesting post indeed! I comment as an ev...A very interesting post indeed! I comment as an evangelical in the English Puritan/Baptist stream, who has spent some time in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have no doubt that the E.O. are Christian, as are the R.C. 1054 AD marked the dividing point, but it was Rome that went it's own way and created schism. At present there are negotiations to eventually bring both together, but there is a long way to go. Doctrinally, the Orthodox Church is rooted in the historic early councils and creeds and the Early Fathers of the Church. The liturgy of St John Chrysostom goes back to the very early days of the church. The deep spirituality and clear doctrinal teaching of the Eastern Church in all its branches is amazing. There is so much we can learn from them as we as evangelicals continue to divide and develop new "flavors" of the church to satisfy everyone's whim and desire. I would recommend anyone interested to read Bishop Kallistos Ware's two books, "The Orthodox Church" and "The Orthodox Way". They are available from B&N, Amazon.com and other large book stores. Both are real eye-openers.Fogboundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16253691066232171019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-15267594005393135082010-03-12T19:19:58.909-08:002010-03-12T19:19:58.909-08:00I agree that the Catholic Church has more going on...I agree that the Catholic Church has more going on than many Protestants are led to believe. They've also got some pretty bad problem but then so do Protestants.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-10970086664190239592010-03-12T03:10:39.996-08:002010-03-12T03:10:39.996-08:00The man that led me to Christ as my Saviour was a ...The man that led me to Christ as my Saviour was a devout Protestant at that particular time. Another one of my other dearest friends, developed spiritually as a protestant but "switched" and eventually became a Catholic Deacon in the last few years as he "drew nearer". It is interesting that both "switched" to the Catholic faith. Pope John was quoted as saying, "We need to evangelize...... within the church". Although I think of myself more along the lines of "non-denominational" after having been raised a Catholic, falling away, and coming back as "non-denominational", it is evident that the Catholic Church has more going on than many Protestants are led to believe.<br />Paul NicklasUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166116332593114873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-83436199962163713402010-02-01T07:17:42.546-08:002010-02-01T07:17:42.546-08:00Patrick, I think you misunderstood the quote from ...Patrick, I think you misunderstood the quote from The Shape Of Sola Scriptura. He was identifying the opposing position as a circular argument by way of a Reduction ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). The circular part of his argument was meant to be circular because he was summarizing a position that HE DID NOT AGREE WITH. In other words, he was arguing for his position because the alternative is circular. But his argument is very linear.<br /><br />As for the Council of Trent, see<br />http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-7088735918007659282010-01-31T06:43:11.269-08:002010-01-31T06:43:11.269-08:00Okay, so I was wrong on my facts about Douglas Wil...Okay, so I was wrong on my facts about Douglas Wilson. Hopefully I can meet him someday. The videos that I have seen of him on youtube are very inspiring.<br /> <br />The lengthly quote from The Shape Of Sola Scriptura seems very circular in itself. It is a question of what comes first, the chicken or the egg. It always comes back to this doesn´t it. This is what you and Patrick Barns went round and round on. When I was becoming Orthodox, I was able to set these questions aside for the first time because I realized it was faith (just like Christianity is presented in the New Testiment) and that there was no final authority, that it was scripture, the Holy Spirit, Church Authority all together and so questions of begging the question essentially fell on deaf ears. It is also unfortunate that he sees the historical record of the true church as just ¨fragments¨. I thought that ¨The Shape of Sola Scriptura¨ was an Orthodox book.<br /> <br />I would like to take you up on your challenge to read the Councel of Trent. Maybe you can send it to me (ha ha). Even if I could find it in Spanish I would read it.<br /> <br />Thank you for clarifying what you meant by denominations. I tend to laugh off the disagreements between these different jurisdictions, which are miniscule compared with the disagreements among other churches and usually ahve to do with some being more conservative than others. In some countries the jurisdictions overlap, like in the U.S, South America and the Holy Land, but mostly it is just the people of God in whatever country or city they are in. Because they are divided linguistically does not mean they are so different in other respects. Excuse me for saying this, Robin, but in all honesty I think this is a cheap shot that is often levelled against the Orthodox but at the end of the day doesn't hold water.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150732690127810856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-18138253541776076032010-01-30T10:11:24.539-08:002010-01-30T10:11:24.539-08:00By denominations in the EO (not EU!) I meant all t...By denominations in the EO (not EU!) I meant all the infighting and bickering and theological disagreements between and among the British Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Orthodox Church of Finland, Russian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, the Church of Alexandria, the Church of Jerusalem, and the Orthodox Church in America. These are more than just geographical distinctions like "the Church at Ephesus" or "the church at Corinth" since among these groups there is real and substantial disagreements and bickering. Ergo, denominations even though they don't call it that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-85258260843005206822010-01-30T08:52:28.599-08:002010-01-30T08:52:28.599-08:00Patrick, I don't know what the EU view is that...Patrick, I don't know what the EU view is that you reference several times in your post. Did you mean the EO view?Ken Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03442775171294114618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-27072586079151732442010-01-30T08:50:13.753-08:002010-01-30T08:50:13.753-08:00Patrick your points may be good, but your history ...Patrick your points may be good, but your history is mistaken when you wrote, "Douglas Wilson had to start his own church because he broke away from the Prsbyterian church after they threw him out."<br /><br />Douglas Wilson has been the pastor of the same independent baptist church that he started in Mosco in the 1980's. As he and the elders of that church have grown more reformed in their understanding of the Bible, they have moved toward reformed doctrine and practice that is essentially Presbyterian in character.<br /><br />The CREC started as an aggregation of independent credo and paedobaptist churches that were convicted of the need for accountability.<br /><br />So, Wilson was never in a Presbyterian denomination, much less did he get kicked out of one. Rather, he has led this aggregation of formerly independent churches in the Presbyterian direction. Even though it has presbyteries, the CREC today is not strictly Presbyterian in polity. The pastors and elders are not members of presbytery, they are members of their church.Ken Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03442775171294114618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-4382530758531832292010-01-30T06:41:23.752-08:002010-01-30T06:41:23.752-08:00How can you say the EU churches have denominations...How can you say the EU churches have denominations? There are scismatic groups but they are usually formally excommunicated or declared heretical. This issue came up in the debate we had with Patrick Barns when you quoted Douglas Wilson and you didn´t explain then, even though I asked you to ellaborate on what he meant by denomination. The Orthodox have parishes. It is simply the Christian church in Greece, or the Christian church in Russia. The situation in the United States is unique because of immigrants, but it is not an example of Orthodoxy as a whole but something highly irregular (maybe it is good, but it is highly irregular). <br /> <br />Another reason they can´t be called denominations is because they are in communion and agreement with each other. They are simply whatever parishes are in whatever city. But because of linguistic needs, they often divide themselves according to language.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150732690127810856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-66714947037028787252010-01-30T06:34:43.484-08:002010-01-30T06:34:43.484-08:00I don´t have my theological library with me since ...I don´t have my theological library with me since I am in Peru, it is somewhere stored in the many houses of my parents. But in that library I had several books by popes, both Pope John Paul called Crossing the Threshold of Pope and some books by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. I can´t be sure, but I believed they may have touched on the sola fide issue. Protestans don´t believe in just faith because they also believe in the authority of the bible. So it is the same. I have heard many catholics over the years argue that the protestant reformers set up a false dichotomy (this is what Peter Kreeft says is the book I tried to reference). Trent was all about trying to reach a compromise and addressing these reactions to catholic excesses. But many catholics admit that Trent went overboard, like throwing out infant communion. The Catholic church has come full circle on many things. According to them doctrine can evolve and develop. Gregory would probably be a very good source on this question of sola fide, why don´t you ask him. I think the Catholic position on this issue is the same as the Orthodox one. But I´ve sat through enough masses, here in Peru, and heard the priests preach on the importance of faith that I can´t just authomatically accept that the Catholic church doesn´t affirm sola fide. Remember, the words sola fide, just like sola scriptura, are protestant catigories. The Catholic chuch could accept the ideas while not embracing the catigories and implications. For this reason, some Orthodox say sola fide is a heresy and others say it is their own doctrine, it is because of the implications and the fact that these are protestant catigories to begin with.<br /><br />But our brother Gregory could probably bring to bear authoritative catholic sources on the question of sola fide.<br /> <br />I´m not sure Doulgas Wilson was excommunicated. I just remember reading that once (from a non-authoritative source).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150732690127810856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-35410140032164239792010-01-29T22:22:10.436-08:002010-01-29T22:22:10.436-08:00Patrick, I would challenge you to cite one authori...Patrick, I would challenge you to cite one authoritative RC document or decree affirming the reformation doctrine of Sola Fide.<br /><br />Read what Trent had to say about the doctrine.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-67553497723284472502010-01-29T22:11:28.912-08:002010-01-29T22:11:28.912-08:00A "Presbyterian church" simply means a d...A "Presbyterian church" simply means a denomination with a Presbyterian form of government. Doug Wilson's church is Presbyterian in that sense, so you will have to clarify your comments. Further, <br />Doug Wilson started his church in his garage and they have been meeting ever since. It was never, as far as I am aware, a member of any denomination from which he was ejected. Wilson's church and some other churches eventually organized into a denomination, which the church we attend is part of. And praise God that they did start another denomination because in doing so they caused the number of denominations in America to go down, since every independent church is its own denomination.<br /><br />The RC and EO have denominations they just don't call them denominations. Your other points (some good points actually and some legitimate questions) will have to wait until later.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09254115748657338424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-25911168415364826812010-01-29T04:28:14.367-08:002010-01-29T04:28:14.367-08:00If you accept the Vatican´s position, RC and EU ar...If you accept the Vatican´s position, RC and EU are two sides of the same coin. In fact, all bariars to intercommunion have been lifted by them. Peter Kreeft once wrote that, ¨The differences remaining between EU and RC are much smaller than those between RC and Evangelicalism.¨ Of course this is not the EU position, but it is the position of the Vatican which actually encourages sharing of sacraments. Here in Lima Peru the RC archbishops come to our parish and receive communion as illustration of the Vatican´s stance.<br /> <br />It is usally protestants who are said to be nominalists because they believe sacraments are at the end of the day mostly symbolic. I know you would say differently, but more symbolic than the EU view them. <br /> <br />Douglas Wilson had to start his own church because he broke away from the Prsbyterian church after they threw him out. The Eastern Orthodox would say this represents the scismatic mentality of protestantim working at its best. The irony is that Doulgas Wilson is very orthodox in his theology. But you say that we can call people non-Christians only if they have been excommunicated, so where does that leave Pastor Wilson? <br /> <br />http://shaderenegade.blogspot.<br />com/2002/04/presbytery-of-<br />dakotas-takes-on-doug.html<br /><br />One more question, You say that Rome denies sole fide. This would be denied by Rome. In Peter Kreefts book about Catholicism to Evangelicals, he says, in discovering sole fide, Martin Luther discovered a Catholic doctrine from a Catholic book in a catholic country. Kreeft says that Rome has always beleived in sole fide. I think any catholic priest would affirm their belief in sole fide. But even protestants don´t believe that it is only faith to the exclusion of everything else, because they also believe in the bible...so in the end it is not really only faith is it? The same as the RC position.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150732690127810856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19364700.post-39493498787999539392010-01-28T20:22:11.213-08:002010-01-28T20:22:11.213-08:00Thank you for a thoughtful, reasoned, well stated ...Thank you for a thoughtful, reasoned, well stated post.Carolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05917386285594576612noreply@blogger.com