Below is the first segment of the much anticipated interview with my father on his new book Hell and Beyond.
For background about the book and this interview, see my earlier post 'Introducing Hell and Beyond.' To read the other interview segments that have been published so far, click here.
One of the original purposes of this interview was to generate a lot of discussion. After the first couple segments, we get into some pretty deep questions. If you would like to contribute your own thoughts to these questions, use the Facebook links at the end of this segment. This is your chance to continue the discussion about God, the afterlife, and the nature of reality, even if you haven't read the book.
About the Participants
Michael Phillips, author of Hell and Beyond |
Michael Phillips is a novelist, historian, and devotional writer whose books have been embraced by readers around the world. His nonfiction books include biographies of Victorian author George MacDonald and Olympic athlete-turned-Congressman Jim Ryun. In the 1980s, Phillips' edited and facsimile editions of MacDonald's near-forgotten works inspired a worldwide resurgence of interest in the Scotsman whose writing helped inspire C.S. Lewis' conversion from atheism to Christianity. Phillips is best known for his fiction, a body of work that includes sixty titles, including beloved historical novels set throughout the world. More information about his writings can be found on his website at the following links:
• Dare to Think Big About God
• Father of the Inklings
Robin Phillips is Michael Phillips’ son and works as a contributing author for a variety of publications, including Salvo Magazine, Touchstone, and the Chuck Colson Center, in addition to doing political journalism for a lobby group in the UK. He enjoys speaking at academic conferences throughout the world and is currently working on a doctorate in historical theology through King's College, London. Robin is the author of Saints and Scoundrels (Canon Press, 2012).
First Three Questions
Robin
Phillips 1:
Why did you write Hell and Beyond?
Michael Phillips 1: Ever since I first discovered
and then became immersed in the writings of C.S. Lewis and George MacDonald
(whose book Phantastes began Lewis’s journey out of atheism toward
Christianity), I have been fascinated with the mysterious and controversial
subject of the afterlife.
Who goes to heaven, who goes to
hell...and what are the entry requirements for both destinations?
Obviously, the instant you begin
raising such questions, the whole of Christian theology rushes at you like a
tidal wave. The onslaught (and criticism if you happen to raise the questions
vocally!) of reactions comes from both ends of a widely diverse theological
spectrum—fundamentalism and universalism: Will the damned be tormented by a
righteous and punishing God in hell forever and ever...or will all men
ultimately be saved?
These are extremely difficult and
scripturally obscure questions. There are no one-dimensional answers. Those on
the fundamentalist side who maintain that “Scripture plainly teaches” the
doctrine of everlasting punitive punishment in many cases don’t know their
Bibles as well as they think they do. Scripture may teach that...but it
may not. Scripturally there are two legitimate sides to this puzzling
conundrum. Forceful and scripturally sound arguments can be brought to bear
from both directions. Honest open-mindedness on the afterlife is far more
important and useful than proof-textual dogmatism.
Lewis
and MacDonald both addressed the question of the afterlife, and both wrote
books about it. Interestingly, they came down on different sides. Though he
never came out and definitely endorsed the position of what I call “universal
reconciliation,” MacDonald’s writings clearly profess sympathy with it. A strong argument can certainly
be made that MacDonald believed that in the end all men would ultimately avail
themselves—even if it took eons of the consuming fire of the outer darkness to
accomplish such work—of the redemptive power of the cross and the forgiveness
of God’s infinite Fatherhood. Lewis on the other hand seemed to hold to a more
conservatively traditional viewpoint—that though perhaps given the opportunity
to repent after death (a decidedly non-conservative position), there would be
many that never would, and would, by the God-given power of their own choice,
remain in a hell of their own making to all eternity. This is but a brief
précis, but this would be my interpretation of the two men’s general outlooks.
MacDonald wrote graphically and
pointedly about the afterlife, and about the purifying purpose and necessity of
a redemptive hell. He did so in several of his sermons, and particularly in the
towering fantasy that many view as the summit of his literary career, Lilith.
Though his perspectives on God’s eternal purposes are crystal clear, his
conclusions about the afterlife remain indistinct. I happen to think he
intended it so. He desired to set down no dogma.
As my own writing career has been
so closely linked with George MacDonald, and to a lesser extent to Lewis, it
has been a great privilege to act sort of as a purveyor and interpreter and
redactor of MacDonald’s message to new generations of readers. As a result, the
question I am asked about MacDonald more than any other is some variation of,
Was George MacDonald a universalist...did George MacDonald believe that all men
would ultimately be saved?
I have tried to address such
questions honestly and squarely. In the end I felt that perhaps the best
way to address them would be through the same medium that Lewis and MacDonald
used—fiction and fantasy. Lewis wrote The Great Divorce to set into
fiction his perspective that perhaps death closes fewer doors than people
think, and that even when given the choice of heaven after death, many will yet
choose hell rather than give up those parts of self that are most dear to them.
MacDonald wrote Lilith to offer a fictional picture of what repentance
may be like in the darkest hell of self-awareness imaginable.
I felt that perhaps I could add
some new and distinct elements to the ongoing discussion with a fantasy of my
own, drawing on the work of these two men, yet adding new elements that might
further the dialog with greater specificity and detail. That is why I wrote Hell
and Beyond.
RP 2: Yes, the
influence of both George MacDonald and C.S. Lewis are clearly evident in the
work. I found myself continually being reminded of MacDonald’s doctrine of
becoming, while there were numerous quotations from both C.S. Lewis’s and
George MacDonald’s writings. Do you have anything more to share about how these
authors inspired you to write this book?
MP 2: I’ve already alluded to the
fact that it was their books, and the questions raised by their writings about
the afterlife, that provided the originating impetus to follow in their
footsteps with a fantasy of my own. But the seeds planted by Lewis and MacDonald
were far more than merely those connected to questions about heaven and hell.
These two men have been my spiritual and literary mentors for more than forty
years. Nearly everything I am as a man and as a Christian has roots in their
perspectives of the Christian life and the Fatherhood of God. When Lewis said
that he doubted he had ever written a book in which he had not quoted from
MacDonald, I know exactly what he meant. I would say the same of him too, as
well as of MacDonald.
All these influences come into
the perspectives that are woven throughout Hell and Beyond. You mention
the idea of “becoming.” This is but one of many such concepts that have been
deeply ingrained into me from their writings. This happens to be one I consider
of huge importance—Lewis’s perspective that every choice we make here and now,
the large and the small, changes us in imperceptible ways. These choices have
eternal consequences upon the character that we will one day present to the
Lord. This idea is foundational to the entire theme of Hell and Beyond.
For thirty or thirty-five years I
have known that someday I would write an afterlife fantasy that was set,
or seemed to be set, in hell—or in the borderlands of hell—and which
drew its inspiration from Lewis’s The Great Divorce and George
MacDonald’s Phantastes and Lilith. Having read these three books
first in my 20s, and continuing to read them through the years, their impact
upon my spiritual outlook has been foundational. So too has been their impact
upon my imagination as a writer.
During all the years since, my
subconscious has been at work ruminating on possibilities, scenarios, plot
lines, and character sketches. I think I always knew that a day would come,
unexpectedly perhaps, when suddenly the book would simply “be there.” Without
planning, all at once the years of invisible preparation would rise to the
surface and it would flow out in a continuous stream, probably quickly, in all
likelihood without my knowing what would come next, nor knowing where it would
lead.
RP 3: Tell me more
about the influence of Lewis’s The Great Divorce in your life, and how
that relates to your inquiry into the whole subject of the afterlife.
MP 3: I discovered Lewis before I had
ever heard of George MacDonald. The Great Divorce planted the seed in my
spiritual consciousness of the idea that perhaps death does not close all doors
to the operation of free will. And not merely the free will to make small
choices, but eternal choices. As I read the book, it even allowed for
the possibility that the door of repentance may remain open after death for
non-Christians. Lewis does not overtly state that salvation may be entered into
after death by the previously “unsaved.” We don’t know whether Lewis believed
that or not. This possibility, however, underscores the impact The
Great Divorce had upon me in my spiritual youth.
It is impossible to overstate the
significance of this mental light bulb going off. For one like myself, raised
in traditional evangelical theology, it was a doctrinal atomic bomb.
From there I soon discovered the
writings of George MacDonald. The doors continued to open toward an enlarged
view of the afterlife. MacDonald’s notion (not original to him, but original to
me through him) of a redemptive, redeeming hell was the central paradigm
in this expanded perspective. This continued broadening of my outlook cannot be
separated from MacDonald’s vision of God’s eternally loving and forgiving
Fatherhood. The concept of the fire as a purifying tool in God’s hands
(as in Malachi’s furnace) not an agent of torture and punishment in the
devil’s, was shockingly, wonderfully, explosively new to me.
From this foundation built by
Lewis and MacDonald, I began studying the Scriptures and other writings more
intently. I corresponded briefly with New Testament scholar William Barclay,
posing the questions I would have asked of Lewis and MacDonald if that were
possible. Had Lewis still been alive, I might well have done what Walter Hooper
and others did—boldly shown up at the door of The Kilns with my questions!
As it was, however, in the early
1970s I wrote to William Barclay in Scotland. Largely on the basis of that
correspondence and my additional study, I came to see the profound and
widespread scriptural support for an “alternate” perspective on the afterlife
and the reconciliatory purposes of hell. This was as explosive as the previous
revelation—the fact that the Bible does not exclusively teach endless
punitive punishment toward sinners.
This is Christendom’s massive
doctrinal cover-up. Does any greater scriptural dishonesty exist, continually
perpetuated through Christendom, than the hushing up of the scriptural evidence
pointing toward the possibility of repentance after death? I don’t use such
strong language to argue for one view
or against another. I use the strong
language against the bias that insists that Scripture teaches one and only one perspective. That bias is based
on an illusion. Scripturally it is an open question, with many valid arguments
on both sides of what is a very complex issue.
Obviously, from these beginnings
much more reading and study took place. The impact of Narnia, MacDonald’s
sermons, and Barclay’s Spiritual Autobiography proved equally
significant milestones in my growth.
It was these three men—Lewis,
MacDonald, and Barclay—who opened the doors and built this foundation in my
outlook. I owe them a great debt.
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